Saturday, June 04, 2011

One Nation "Under God"

That alawys irks me. The defense of the "under God" part.

Those words were never a part of the original pledge of allegence. Those words were added in the 1950's, the era of Eugene Mcarthy. The era of extreme paranoia.

Yet people like to say that it's what the "founding Fathers" intended.

I don't think so.

I think the fuss over putting the "Under God" back into the pledge is just a ruse to keep the citizens mind off of more important subjects.

You once claimed here to be a good Catholic? Why don't you contact the Pope and ask him who is infallible, what he thinks about how the founding fathers felt about God? I am not Catholic, but will accept his answer.

Please publish your answer here for us to see the Pope's answer.
A short history of WHY these quotes are here.

Quotes taken out of context by the radical left

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution signed and agreeed to by our founding fathers

"This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed." Patrick Henry in Last Will and Testament, November 20, 1798 Moses C. Tyler, Patrick Henry, p. 395 (1898, reprinted 1972)

"I have tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty; through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me." Alexander Hamilton's last dying words, July 12, 1804

“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religious, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.” Patrick Henry 1776

“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also.” Thomas Jefferson

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." - Speech Sept. 17, 1796 (source) Get the mug from Right Things

“Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of thee and thy son, Jesus Christ.” George Washington

“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” John Quincy Adams 6th US President and son of John Adams

"The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.” The US Congress 1782

“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.” - James Madison (original source not verified Suplimental Source: "America's God And Country Encyclopedia Of Quotations." William J. Federer. Fame Publishing, Inc. 820 South MacArthur Blvd., Coppell, Texas 75019-4214. 1994)

"The right of the colonist as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Lawgiver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament." Samuel Adams "The Rights of the Colonists" Get the mug from Right Things

"I think the Christian religion is a Divine institution; and I pray to God that I may never forget the precepts of His religion or suffer the appearance of an inconsistency in my principle and practice." James Iredell Supreme Court Justice

"My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!" Benjamin Rush

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, an the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glary. That the Scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him." Roger Sherman

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity religion and morality are indispensable supports." George Washington - Speech Sept. 17, 1796 (source) Get the mug from Right Things

"Without a humble imitation of the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, we can never hope to be a happy nation." George Washington

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." John Jay the first Supreme Court Justice (for those of you who didn't know that)
"Because experience witnesseth that eccelsiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785 *No, he isn't criticizing Christianity as a religion or denouncing it. He is criticizing the "church" and the problems inherent in an organized religion that breed a distortion of its true form. Many people who try to argue that the founding fathers were not Christians will misquote this and use it as part of their argument so be warned.
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary; if angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary." - James Madison (Federalist #51)

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, 1820
*Again, he isn't criticizing the whole of Christianity as a religion or denouncing it. Jefferson, like Madison, is stating that he believes the teachings of Jesus have been corrupted by those that took up the mantle of the preaching the religion after his departure from this place. His problem is with the "church" not with Christianity. Many people who try and argue that the founding fathers were not Christians will use this quote out of context to try and prove their fallacious point.

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." --- Benjamin Franklin, letter to his father, 1738

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."--- Benjamin Franklin, Works, Vol. VII, p. 75 *As per Madison and Jefferson above, Franklin was criticizing the organized "church" for bastardizing Christianity rather than upholding its core teachings. He was not denouncing the religion itself as bad although some that would try to argue that we are not a nation founded on Christian ideals will try and use this quote to prove such. These people will quote only the first part "I wish it were more productive of good works" out of context of the rest of this statement.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both there (England) and in New England."--- Benjamin Franklin

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson

"Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." - Samuel Adams

"Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." - John Jay, First Cheif Justice of the Supreme Court

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." - John Qunicy Adams

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have removed their only firm basis: a conviction in the minds of men that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson

"He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who set himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country." - John Witherspoon, member of the Continental Congress and clergyman

"The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: 'that God governs in the affairs of men.' And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?" - Benjamin Franklin

"Our ancestors established their system of government on morality and religious sentiment. Moral habits, they believed, cannot safely be entrusted on any other foundation than religious principle, not any government secure which is not supported by moral habits.... Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens." - Daniel Webster

"The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scripture ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. All the miseries and evil men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible." - Noah Webster

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." - Thomas Jefferson (to S. Kercheval, 1810)

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - Thomas Jefferson (to Baron von Humboldt, 1813)

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." - Thomas Jefferson (to Carey, 1816)

"You have been instructed form your childhood in the knowledge of your lost state by nature; the absolute necessity of a change of heart, and an entire renovation of soul to the image of Jesus Christ; of salvation thro' His meritorious righteousness only; and the indispensable necessity of personal holiness without which no man shall see the Lord." - Elias Boudinot, President of the Continental Congress

"History fails to record a single precedent in which nations subject to moral decay have not passed in to political and economic decline." - Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in the Pacific during WWII

"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a Nation gone under." - Ronald Reagan

"I do not believe that the Constitution was the offspring of inspiration, but I am perfectly satisfied that the Union of the States in its form and adoption is as much the work of a Devine Providence as any of the miracles recorded in the Old and New Testaments." - Benjamin Rush

"There is not a truth to be gathered form history more certain, or more momentous, than this: that civil liberty cannot long be separated from religious liberty without danger, and ultimately without destruction to both. Wherever religious liberty exists, it will, first or last, bring in and establish political liberty." - Joseph Story, Congressman and Supreme Court Justice

"Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority for that law which is divine...far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other." - James Wilson (signatory of the Constitution)

"(T)he propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained" - George Washington, First Inaugural, April 30 1789

Please let me know if you need more quotes from our founding fathers in support of their intention that God is the center of the Unites States of America, and there is no shame in asking both publically and privately the God Bless America.
Do you have a clear understanding of ligslative intent and legislative history?

Legislative intent is in intent behind the law. (Like what ERISA was supposed to do. It's what the legislators intend the law to do before reaching a compromise to get a law passed. It does not always agree with either side of the debate. Eventually a reasonable compromise, agreed to by both sides, gets legislation passed.

Legislative history is a list of the behind the scenes discussions, essays. letters, private debates, etc. of individual legislators. These are NOT law, they are personal opinions.

If a legislator has a personal opinion he can say whatever he feels. This does not in any way mean that it's what he finnaly agreed to, the final legislation as it is passed may or may not agree with him.

The Federalist Papers are not law, you are correct, but they give a history of the debate which went on in our country.

Did you know that many of our Founding Fathers were bigots in the sense that they were anti Catholic? So if they were anti-catholic, and hated the pope why do you care what the pope says?
You obviously agree with them.

Write the Pope and expect an answer? Yeah, sure, if you want to wait about 6 years for a reply I will. The Pope does not answer mail,even though he has an e-mail account. All correspondence is filtered through a number of offical channels. An marriage annullment (which requires the pope to sign off on it) takes about 4 years. To remove a priest from his vows takes about the same amount of time. Even in this day of instant everything there is no instant messaging from the Pope.

The pope had no civil authority even in Vatican City (that indepentent legal principality in which he resides) He is only the Spiritual leader of the Catholics. There is a civil administrator, a priest, who runs the office of the Vatican.

Papal infalability has been declared to be only in matters of faith and morals, he is not infallable about history, math or science o if sewers should be cleaner and rose bushes trimmed.

But does the Pope belive there is a God? Let me look up some quotes from his writing as pope, or will you accept the writing of former popes, you know the ones who reigned in the time the Founding Fathers?

Maybe you want me to see what the Dali Lama has to say regarding God? Or shall I also include the final spiritual leader (whoever he was at the time) of Islam to find out what he thought about it?

To Muslilms everyone who does not believe in Islam is an infidel, a non believer. So if we don't beleive in that version of God then we don't count.

For someone who obviously was educated enough to be someone in the medical field you seem to have no ability to do any real "critical thinking" because you look at a subject from one limited point of view not taking into account any other mitigating factors.
Patrick Henry left his faith to his family in his will, not to the people of the United States. It was a personal belief.

Our nation was founded by a conglomeration of religious beliefs, not all of them agreeing with the same Christian principles - because Pilgiims and Quakers and Catholics and those who practiced the Christanity of the Dutch church did not accept the same things.

A belief in God, perhaps, but a belief in Jesus Christ? Ask a Quaker if he believes that Jesus Christ is Lord of all and find out.

The dying words of Alexander Hamilton were a profession of his own personal belief.

If Thomas Jeffereson thought the whole country should be unified in Christian belief, why didn't he put that in the Constitution?

It was his personal opinion. Apparently he couldn't dfefend it enough to get others to sign off on it and make it the law of the land, so how strong was his beleif if he couldn't defend it?
Wher did the George Wahington quote dome from? His own private devotional? No date or location of a speech is assigned. So it's a private opinion.

As far as I know neither Douglas McArthur nor Ronald Regaqn were founding fathers of this country. Nor were they legialators. That is unless they time traveled.

McArthur was a soldier and Regan was in the "executive branch" not "legislative branch" of the United States.

To Which Christian church was Samuel Adams refering? Non-denominational? Baptist? Pentacostal? Presbyterian? Methodist? Lutheran? Assembly of God? Seventh Day Adventist? Mormon?
(yeah Mormon's believe in Jesus too)

Benjamin Rush was a Universalist and a humanist. Is that Christian?
The Constitution of the United States: Article VI [3]
"The senators and represenatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support the Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States"

For those not understanding the term AFFIRMATION, it means they did not take an oath before God. They affirm on their own word that what they say is true. That's no anyone who does not adhere to any religious belief can be worn in.

Having worked for several government agencies in my life, (Defense Dept./Department of the Army, Federal Records Center, Internal Revenue Service) I had to take the oath to protect defend the constitution of the United States, and it didn't end with the words "so help me God."

By the way that oath is not null and void when you leave the job. The oath means you will do this for the rest of your life. I've sworn to it three times, so I must believe it's something I have to do. Defend this country against all enemies, both foreign and domestic....
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